Noah Brainer

joakim noah 9 10 Noah Brainer

Something has to be missing in the multiple reports of a possible deal that would send Carmelo Anthony to the Bulls.

I get it:  ideally, you would want to acquire a great player for nothing.  Short of that, you’d like to part with lesser pieces than your improving, high-motor big man.  The Bulls would rather just send Luol Deng’s deal with some add-in fodder and be done with it.

But this needs no mulling over.

Joakim Noah is a good player on the verge of being very good.  His minimal offense and recently-injured feet are more than offset by his aggressive rebounding, defensive length, passing ability, ballhandling and end-to-end speed.  His screaming and gesticulating make people happy.

Carmelo Anthony, however, is an elite player who would immediately create a contender with Carlos Boozer and Derrick Rose.  There is no reason not to do this, especially with a contract extension as part of the arrangement.

In short, too good to be true.

Quiz time!  About which quarterback is Mike Martz speaking?

“Martz told the broadcast team of Kenny Albert and Daryl Johnston that ______ sees the field like Warner and has the quick release of Marc Bulger. Then he said that ______ could be the best quarterback he ever coached. Even for someone who tends towards bombast, that’s a bold statement.”

Answer?  JT O’Sullivan.  Yep, him.  That quote is from the SF Chronicle (via FanHouse) from September of 2008.  Make of that what you will, in light of all the Cutler treacle.

Last night’s NFL opener wasn’t exactly the whiz-bang stuff we wanted on a fast indoor track, but it was nice to see Brett Favre lose.  I’m starting to think the Williams Wall may be aging out of dominance, which would be nice.

Kudos to Ryan Moore for his throwback getup at Cog Hill yesterday.  Moore is recognized for eschewing sponsorship logos (except for his ball and the equipment company he co-owns), but here’s betting that changes whenever he gets married.

Season over for the White Sox.  Entertaining year, got us right up to the Bears, but they are not a playoff team.

We’ll be in Plainfield today at the Buffalo Wild Wings on Route 59.  The Bud Light “Who Needs Two?” Tavern Tour will give you the chance to start your weekend with some cold beer, hot wings, and the chance to win tickets.

  • bigtime sucker

    can i throw in a sidecar secondary deal if we have to unload noah?

    james johnson and a conditional draft pick to portland for marcus camby? Hey i want melo and would be willing to part with Noah as well but SOMEBODY has to protect the lane, Boozer is a scorer and a good weak side rebounder, but hoop protector he is not!!!

    • bigtime sucker

      ESPN IS now reporting the bulls are close to an extension on noah, an extension or a sign and trade? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
      let’s get real, the bulls are way to hesitant to get rid of their “core” and again unless they can spin a second deal and somehow land a marcus camby(only possible if greg oden is healthy) or some other player who can guard the lane(PLEASE GOD NOT THE OVERLY AVAILABLE ERIC DAMPIER) no matter how much moving Noah for the sake of the Elite Anthony is to you and me. Those two function on a whole different plane of thought. They actually outsmart themselves into stupidity.

  • bigtime sucker

    JT O sullivan had a good start to that year as well, then he looked in the mirror and saw JT O sullivan staring back at him. Mr. Bernstein, don’t go all negative on Jay Cutler, even if he deserves it, you had marked out for him more than ANYBODY i can remember when we got him, you more than anyone have to give him a little bit more bennefit of the doubt.

    • BBOX

      Would you care to point out where in the blog Bernstein said anything negative about Jay Cutler?

  • Iron Chef - Junk Food

    I love the deep-fried onion & wings at J.T. O’sullivan’s. Great after work munchies.

  • AT3374

    Danny I can’t agree more . If Denver wants Noah for Anthony , DO THAT IN A HEART BEAT !!!! But if they can be duped into taking Luol Deng and a basketball rack , I’m all for that also .

    Bears will win this Sunday if for nothing else I hate to have Doug and OB have a heart attack or their brains explode “Scanners” style on air ( though it would be funny to hear them go off ) this Sunday .

    Yeah Sox are done . They over achieved sure , but if Morneau doesn’t get hurt , there is no race to speak off anyways . But at least they never under achieved like the Cubs this year .

    Pretty decent game last night . It seems like the Vikes could use a real reciever in that offense and the fact that Farve and Harvin missed a good portion of training camp showed up last night , they never really connected .

    • bigtime sucker

      this deal is no deal without Deng, not per basketball sensibilties but per CBA rulings. Anthony makes WAY to much money to be traded straight up for Noah’s 3.5 million dollar contract for this year, unless it’s a sign and trade. But you do that and you are paying Anthony’s salary plus Deng’s bloated salary to be a back up and financially that is inefficient business

      • Chris in Scottsdale

        While it would indeed be impossible for this to work based on Noah’s current contract, he’s also getting an extension- he’d have to be. While Noah wouldn’t be getting near-boated, he would still get a huge increase- I wager he’d be closer to 10 than 3.5. Both players would be in a sign & trade.

        While I’d hate to see Noah go, we’re talking about an elite player that is also the one thing that I felt we needed through the summer… the ‘light ’em up’ wing player. Heck, that’s the only reason people were okay with the idea of Joe Johnson… because he was a good fit. Now we’re looking at a top-3 wing scorer… this would be a dream come true.

  • bigtime sucker

    i can’t remember the last time i had a good plate of wings. i hate being on a diet

  • bigtime sucker

    i can’t BELIEVE dan left this out of his blog posting, i am going to email it to him if he hasn’t seen it because this will make him happy happy!!!

    Report: NCAA investigating Tennessee hoops


    I don’t think any amount of money the Denver Nuggets want to offer Carmelo Anthony would be enough to keep him in the “Mile High City” after next season. That being said, if I’m Bulls’ General Manager Gar Forman, I’d do whatever I’d can to acquire the big man from Denver. If it meant parting company with Luol Deng and his expensive, bad contract and Joakim Noah to bring Anthony to Chicago, go for it! If the Bulls made such a deal, they become contenders to bring home the Larry O’Brien Championship Trophy next year and for many years to come.

    As for the White Sox, to borrow a popular “Boers & Bernstein” term, Mark Teahen is bad at baseball and he’s one of the reasons why the Southsiders aren’t going to the MLB Playoffs. His defense at third base reminds me of another guy who briefly sported a White Sox uniform, Wilson Betemit. Although Wilson has had a good season for another bad Royals’ team that visits “The Cell” tonight to start the Sox longest homestand of the year, Teahen can’t seem to make the easiest of throws across the diamond. It looks painfully obvious that Ozzie can no longer rely on Teahen defensively, not to mention offensively either. Three other reasons why the Sox are done… The bats suddenly disappeared the last three games in Detroit, they’re only 28-32 in the A.L. Central & they’ve been awful vs. bottom feeders such as Kansas City, Cleveland & Baltimore. Last but not least, Manny Ramirez has been an offensive dud of late. The veteran DH is 0-for-8 in the last 3 games.

  • Jake from da Burbs

    For me, the question is not should we do ‘Melo for Deng & Noah. That is obvious. You do whatever it takes short of trading Rose to get Anthony. The question really is… from a leverage and tactical point of view, is it necessary to give up Noah?

    Apparently Nuggets and Melo are going to have a final sit-down to talk extension and if he doesn’t sign, Nuggets will apparently look for a deal. If Anthony doesn’t re-sign and dictates only 2-3 teams that he’d go play for, one being the Bulls, the field of teams narrows and the Bulls should analyze the market first.

    I think the Bulls should get into a staring contest with the Nuggets and see who blinks first. The goal is to get the best deal for yourselves. And that would include not parting with Noah at this point. Try and push Deng, Gibson, Johnson and 3 first round picks and see if that will work. Keep staring and dont blink. If however Noah is needed, then you add him but until then you hold out and see if the Nuggets will back down.

    It will take a little bit of guts and gamesmanship but at this point, the Bulls have the leverage and should use it if they have the guts.

  • JohnnyHarvard

    Gotta disagree with the Noah thing. I could go on, and on about why, but I’ll try to keep it brief.

    It has nothing to do with the yelling, Screaming, and intangibles of, leadership, hustle, and mental toughness which are all good reasons, but not enough to offset the better talent. Its about fit, and giving up too much. Noah for Anthony straight up I might consider, but that deal couldn’t be made, because of having to match contracts anyway. Deng would at the least have to be included. So Deng,and Noah for Anthony? No!

    Statistically you’re not getting as much, and you lose two very good defenders. Deng’s defense when healthy is very formidable on the wing, and would come in handy when they face teams loaded with top wing players like the Heat and Magic. Noah’s defensive, and rebounding contributions speak for themselves. I mean he averaged 11+ rebounds in 30 minutes! His per 36 was 13.2! Try replacing that with a guy who can move like he can. I hear his jumper is improving too ugly or not.

    I think Deng gets undervalued here. He’s a top 10 SF in this league I feel. There are some young guys that may step up, and knock him out of the top 10, but top 15 is certain. Thats not bad. I think Noah is a top 5, Top 7 – 10 at least at his position.

    Anthony can score, but he scores by dribble drives ending with layups or fouls (Roses Department), and the Post (Boozers job). So even with what he offers its not as big of a need on this team as defenders who rebound, and run. His three point shot has improved the last two years but far from elite at 35-37% from downtown. Career wise he’s barely over 30%. So he has Deng’s mid-range game but with Handles, and a post game.

    This team is about defense, and transition on offense. That means stops, rebounds, and athletes who run the floor. Three things Noah, and even Deng do a lot better than Anthony. Plus for a scorer his shooting percentage is way too low for me. 46 % isn’t awful, but its not elite. Anthony is a great scorer, but not an Elite carry a team to the title player. To me not worth giving up 2, or 3 effective pieces for. Sorry, I guess I did go on and on.

    I don’t have an issue with the love fest of Martz, and Cutler like you guys do. It has little to no effect on me one way or another. Both are high on the egomaniac list, and apparently need the stroke job as much as they need each other. Just as long as they get it done who cares.

    I agree with the Vikings. I have them behind the Bears this year, and out of the playoffs. One big reason is they’ve avoided the big injuries the past two – three years. This is football. That’ll only go for so long. Its already starting so I see a couple of these older guys to lose snaps if not significant game time. They may even finish last in the North dare I say. I do hope the Bears were paying attention to that cutback play the Saints schooled them on.

    I’m a Cub fan so I care little about the Sox, but I agree they are done. Twins just an amazing machine of consistency. How do you lose a Morneau, and a Nathan, and still go 20+ over, and in the post season by 6+ games? Gardenhire is my manager of the year, decade, and century. I hope my fellow Cub fans take note the next time they want to make excuses for Lou Piniella fumbling his way through his tenure with the highest NL payroll. Lets move on. It would be nice to cancel the 10 hour post game coverage, and talk more Bears, Bulls, and Hawks!

    • Ken

      Is this the same defense used to keep Deng instead of trading him to the Lakers for Kobe yrs back? Right now as the Bulls are currently constructed, they’re may be a 4th seed at best with Deng and Noah. Trading those two for Carmelo instantly catapults the Bulls in the upper tier of Eastern Con teams like the Heat and Celtics. INSTANTLY! Why is this so hard to see? Deng isn’t athletic, doesn’t rebound, can’t defend quicker forwards and can’t create his own shot. Carmelo isn’t good defensively but does everything else I just said Deng can’t do. Noah is a good Defensive F but can’t score and bigger centers have their way with him. Taj Gibson can slip into Noah’s role.

      • JohnnyHarvard

        Kobe is WAY different than Anthony first of all. Secondly this Bulls team a lot better than that one. They’re already in the upper half of the league. Does getting rid of 2 (3 if Gibson is included) good players and adding Anthony make the Bulls better? I don’t think so. He will take shots away from the offense too.

    • AT3374

      Deng’s defense on the wings when healthy is formidable ” . Sorry have to disagree with you there . Team defense sure , but straight up defending someone on the wing , not a chance .

      A really around the league people “know” all about Loul Deng , and if they don’t they should ask Jason Goff .

      • Zombie Chris Henry

        Oh. My. GOD. If you think Deng is the answer, I don’t want to know the question. He is garbage. That doesn’t make him a bad guy. It doesn’t make him BAD at basketball. However, he is overpaid for what he does, has the ideal skill set for a 4, but the body of an unathletic 3. There isn’t ONE team in the league that he would make sense for.

        He is simply not a good NBA player for that salary. If he was making $6-7 million per, he would be an excellent 6th man. First or second option on the second unit for a good team. That’s it.

        I like Noah as much as anyone else, but there are so few big men anymore that a good center is not as necessary as it once was. With Kendrick Perkins and Andrew Bynum winning rings, centers are not exactly integral in today’s NBA. Trade Noah if necessary and figure the rest out later.

      • JohnnyHarvard

        When healthy he is. His long quick arms bother people. Its hard to get a clean shot off of him or dribble past him. His lack of athleticism is more in his jumping ability not his footwork. He is very good off the ball on offense isn’t he? Can’t be good off the ball if you don’t have good feet. I like Goff, but because he says something doesn’t mean its right.

      • Chris in Scottsdale

        The Bulls have been willing to trade Deng for over a year. They would have given him away for nothing this offseason but found no takers. I’ll take Melo/Random collection of big men spare parts over Deng/Noah any day of the week. So would Garpax. So would any other GM. The GM that wouldn’t? His title the next season is “TV Analyst”.

      • bigtime sucker

        johnny, everyone thought jeff hornacek, andrew lang and tim perry were “way too much” for phoenix to give up for charles barkley, “just too many pieces to make it work” they all said, that team finished what, 63-19 and made the finals? Philly didn’t make the playoffs that year. This trade option is just like that one!!!

      • Chris in Scottsdale

        Yeah, I’m sure the Celtics and Lakers had buyer’s remorse after obtaining Garnett and Gasol. Look at Memphis and Minnesota… ridiculing their trade partners and how they fleeced them. When was the last time trading good solid pieces for a superstar -in his prime- has backfired? The only time I felt like it really worked for both teams was a slightly past-his-prime Shaq to Miami… it just took some time for it to develop for the Lakers.

    • Chris in Scottsdale

      Deng’s defense is reasonable, he’s fine on offense as long as you don’t ask him to dribble.

      Deng is a guy the other team just defends straight-up. Carmelo Anthony changes the gameplanning for opposing coaches. At first I thought that it may make the signing of the 2-guard rotation (i.e. Korver) redundant, but good gravy- with Rose, ‘Melo, and Korver, and Boozer on the court at the same time, how do you defend that combination of inside, slash, and straight shooting?

      Yes, it makes the team less savvy defensively… but Rose isn’t exactly ruling the world with his off-the-ball defense either.

      Another aspect not yet mentioned is the gravitational pull that takes place when stars align. With a core of Rose, ‘Carmelo, and Boozer, you’re far more likely to get serviceable older veterans to take exceptions and minimums than you were before. Guys like ‘Sheed, Cassell, McDyess have done this over the last few years… Far removed from their primes and star-making turns, and already gotten their big paychecks, they’re still willing to play and can be extremely effective for 12-18 minutes a game. You’ll get far more guys saying “Yeah, I could be a piece for a title run” with Carmelo in the fold than Deng and Noah… and it’s easier to replace toughness down low than it is to find an elite scorer. That’s why Chris Mullin was a star and Jaime Feick wasn’t.

      • JohnnyHarvard

        Some of you guys seem to missing the fact that I’m talking about Deng & Noah not to mentio0n possibly Gibson which was even mentioned as possible. Not just Deng. If its just Deng than you couldn’t hand me the pen quick enough to sign off on it.

      • Chris in Scottsdale

        We’re not missing it at all. Deng, and either Noah OR Gibson, plus whatever draft picks they want is fine with me. Carmelo is one of the best wing scorers of all time. He’s only 26. He’s a 6-board a night player- he’s basically Domnique Wilkins redux. He’s a superstar and a future hall of famer. HOWEVER, before the obvious is stated that ‘Nique didn’t win, he was playing with Stacy Augmon, Mookie Blaylock and Jon Koncak… I think the cast in Chicago is just a taaaaad better.

        Don’t get me wrong. I LOVE Noah. I’m happy he’s decided to work hard and develop as a player, because it was a concern early on. If the Nuggs accept Taj Gibson, then Fuggetaboutit. If they require Noah instead, then you take a deep breath, and you say “Deal”… and you watch the Bulls become a title contender instead of a dark horse.

        Nobody seems to think the Heat need a capable center OR a point guard. I think the Bulls will be fine with a mediocre center. Personally, I think that it vaults the Bulls past everyone in the East but the Heat… and would make for some fun watchin’.

        At any rate, it sounds like Denver isn’t interested.

      • JohnnyHarvard

        Come on are you seriously comparing what the Lakers & Celtics gave up to what they’re proposing for the Bulls. Deng & Noah are legit top ten players at their positions. I think Noah’s going to have a monster year, & be a top 3 five! So far you’d have to say that comparing Noah to Anthony is not justified, but after this season I don’t think it’ll be that crazy. Part of the process is forecasting. Not what is, but what will be. I think after this year theres a good chance he may be actually considered by some to be in the same class as Howard. Certainly defensively, & rebounding wise. If his jump shot is progressing like I hear it is he’ll be scoring a lot more too in this run, & gun offense they intend on having. And yes I realize how that might sound. I do think his leadership is a huge plus too. You can’t discount intangibles.

        Plus its about fit. Guys like Garnett in his prime,Kobe,Howard Duncan in his prime are beyond fit. They can fit anywhere. Anthony’s not at that level. He’s just not. Now Uncle Terry contends he’s getting better, but is that because his games evolving or is it because he’s just doing what he has to, and is benefited by having to be more relevant to his aging, & injury prone team. They’re not as talented as the Bulls are either.

        I actually liked Dans point of Noah’s foot problems as a consideration. If that does continue to be a nagging issue he’ll never max out his true value. But if what last year’s season is what we get from him with the foot issue over his career I’ll still take it. Without its a no brainer I’d actually rather have Noah over Anthony straight up!

        Personally I don’t see that big of a difference in Anthony’s game than when he first came into the league like Terry suggested. He still shot around 46% chucking 22 shots a game with a .316 % from 3 point land. Sorry, but thats not that impressive to me. I think any NBA player can score at least 20 a game chucking up 22 shots. Do you want him chucking 22 shots in our offense? I do like him getting to the line though. 9 fouls a game at an 83% FT shooting clip gives you 6 or 7 easy points a game.

        I want to see suffocating defense, and quick outlet passes off rebounds from stops out to Rose and having Noah, Deng,Brewer, & even Boozer running up & down the court scoring fast break points. Anthony is a use up the shot clock in the half court game player.

        I also like the idea of having a guy who prevents easy baskets on layups, & put back bunnies. Did you guys forget how bad that hurt us with the Skiles teams. It was one layup after another against us. No one feared going to the hoop. I don’t want that to happen again. Especially considering the players we have to go against like Wade, Lebron, Howard, Bogut,ect. Anthony does nothing to stop those guys from scoring at will.

    • Jason

      Keep on being smart, Johnny Harvard. Too many people are hung up on Carmelo the Legendary Talent instead of looking at Carmelo the Actual NBA player. Eddie Curry was a legendary talent too, and he looked awfully good if you just focused on what he did really well. When you take into account the entire package though, he’s a slightly above average player. I know that no one wants to believe it, but Melo is much closer to Eddie Curry than he is to Lebron James. James literally contributes as much as three average NBA players, while Carmelo is barely above average.

      Some one like Bernstein should understand very well that scoring a lot of points and having sexy moves doesn’t mean that you’re a winner. It doesn’t make you valuable unless your team is terrible and just needs to sell tickets to watch a “star” player.

      Trading Deng and odd pieces for ‘Melo makes a lot of sense because he gives you a third scorer in case Rose or Boozer get hurt, but any deal that includes Noah, much less a deal with both Noah AND Deng, makes no sense unless you’re getting back at least an average center and an above average shooting guard.

      That’s got nothing to do with how much I like this player or that as people, or being a homer. it’s a conclusion based on looking at what all of these players actually do, and not what we think they should be able to do. Noah is a lot more valuable than most people think, and Anthony is a lot less valuable than most people think.

      • JohnnyHarvard

        Well Metrics is just one tool to measure the statistical value of players. In this case I’m sure Noah being a valuable player is perfectly quantifiable, but I’d be lying if I said I took that into consideration. I’m just using the normal stats and what I see with an amateur scouts eye, & what I project in the future.

        I’m also looking at what they both do well, & not do well, & what this team has on the roster, & what fits better. I’m also taking the intangibles into account. To me this team loses way too much and doesn’t gain enough with a trade like this. I’m not as hip on the metrics of NBA players, & teams, but I hope to spend more time on if time permits, & school myself. What I really need is a job that requires me to do stuff like that. One can dream.

  • Chris in Scottsdale

    Who needs a laugh?

    “Most rumors out there have been around a package including Luol Deng and Taj Gibson. It has also been reported there might be a first round pick thrown in to sweeten the deal. This cannot happen.”

    Obviously, reality is not a prerequisite for Bleacher Report writing anymore.

  • merklesboner

    I’ll take Bernsie’s “bet” that golfer Ryan Moore doesn’t cover himself in logos when he gets married, if only to prove to Dan B. that not everyone walking the earth is a corporate whore like him.

  • Jason

    I really expected a smarter perspective on this from an NBA and statistical expert like Dan Bernstein.

    Carmelo Anthony, according to the numbers, is NOT an elite NBA player. He’s an elite talent who scores a lot of points by taking a lot of shots and dominating the ball.

    Per, Carmelo Anthony, for the past two seasons has accounted for a .104 win share per 48 minutes. That means in terms of helping you win, he’s about 4% better than the average NBA player. By comparison, Joakim Noah has provided about .150 ws/48 over the same span.

    Furthermore, arguments about Noah’s fragile health make little sense in the context of Carmelo Anthony. Noah played in 64 regular season games last year while Carmelo played in only 66. The year before, Noah played in 80 games to Carmelo’s 66. Carmelo actually has more of a recent history of health problems than Noah.

    There is zero justifcation to trade Noah for Anthony. Noah is younger, more valuable, has a cheaper contract, is more well liked by fans, and can fit on any team without needing to dominate the ball. Hell, if you want to play the “Carmelo won a national championship at Syracuse” card, Noah won two of them at Florida.

    • bigtime sucker

      wow, i had no CLUE that stats like that existed for basketball. Hoops sabermetrics, watch out bernsy, a new sport to use terms like algorythems and weird statistics with accronyms to make you believe that the eye test is crap

    • Chris in Scottsdale

      While I’m not versed in the application of win shares in regards to basketball, I’m looking at a list of the top active win shares (per 48 minutes) leaders.

      #1 LeBron
      #2 Duncan
      #3… Ginobili?

      And Ginobili is closer to Duncan than the #4 guy, Dirk.

      So per 48, Manu is more valuable -over his CAREER- than Shaq, Garnett, Wade, Kobe, Amare, Billups (the rest of the active top 10).

      Tony Parker? He’s 28th. PER GAME he’s behind Brad Miller, Andre Kirilenko, and Mehment Okur.

      Any metric that places Ginobili third among active players is suspect.

      • Jason

        Since you’re talking about career average, it makes perfect sense for Ginobili to be near the top the list. Shaq’s had 6 bad years, and Manu’s had zero bad years. When you average in bad years, the average goes down. it makes perfect sense to me that a guy who’s spent his entire career being an important part of one of the best teams in NBA history has an abnormally high ws/48 statistic. If any thing is demonstrates the value of being consistently very good compared to being occasionally spectacular.

    • Jason

      I actually want to correct one thing that I wrote, which makes a pretty big difference. I’m not sure why but when I was looking at stats before I wrote this I saw that Anthony had a .103 ws/48 in 2009-2010. Looking again just now I see that there was either an error on the page or with my reading. Anthony actually had a .145 ws/48 in 2009-2010, which is actually quite good, though still short of Joakim Noah. In fact Anthony has only had one bad year, 2008-2009, but he was superb in the playoffs that season so that probably has more to do with the injury he was dealing with than any thing else.

      Even so, the conclusion remains that it would not make sense to trade Noah to get Anthony, because you couldn’t possibly get back a center or shooting guard good enough to make up for the loss of Noah. You’d need some thing like Chris Anderson AND Anthony back for Deng and Noah, and I’m not sure if the salaries would even work.

      • Chris in Scottsdale

        Chris Anderson? Ugh. I’ll stick with 90 year-old Kurt Thomas.

    • JohnnyHarvard

      I forgot about Anthony missing so many games. Thats a very valid point as well, however I will say foot problems on a big man is a huge concern. That doesn’t have much of a chance of improvement running & jumping on a hard wood floor.for 82-100 plus games that count. Thats not counting pre-season & practice. Not sure what Anthony’s issues were though. Do you know anything about that Jason?

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